Cote d'Ivoire: UN expert says mercenaries guard Gbagbo; rebels seek missiles Paris Radio France Internationale in French 0730 GMT 13 Nov 02 RADIO FRANCE INTERNATIONALE Wednesday, November 13, 2002 (Translated Text) Even if the Ivorian Government denies the presence of mercenaries in Cote d'Ivoire, many have testified to their presence in the country over the past few weeks. To answer questions on who these people are, their business, and their mission is our guest this morning, the Belgian Johan Peleman, a UN expert, who has written four reports for the UN Security Council on arms trafficking in Liberia and Sierra Leone. He is interviewed by Christophe Boisbouvier. (Begin recording) (Boisbouvier) Good morning, Johan Peleman. (Peleman) Good morning. (Boisbouvier) The Ivorian Government has hired dozens of mercenaries to confront the mutineers. We hear of French and South African nationals with the French having recruited the South Africans. Is there an international market where one can obtain this service? (Peleman) Yes, absolutely. The security market operating from France was privatized at the end of the cold war, so one can actually obtain a private army if one so desires. (Boisbouvier) The London-based UK company, Sandline, is notably mentioned. (Peleman) Yes, Sandline is indeed the inheritor of the South African company, Executive Outcomes, which is very famous for its exploits in Angola and Sierra Leone. That company kept real private armies with hundreds of mercenaries.... (Boisbouvier, interrupting) So, if I get you right, there are two kinds of mercenaries, namely those working individually, and those operating within private companies. Is that right? (Peleman) Yes, individual mercenaries rather constitute what has been the tradition of mercenary activities in Africa, which is made up of adventurers and ex-soldiers. But, right now there are private companies that are specialized in mercenary activities. These are veterans who are very professional and who are hired in dozens, and sometimes in hundreds for actual offensive operations and fighting. (Boisbouvier) Would there be in Cote d'Ivoire a mix of these two types of mercenaries, the individual ones and those belonging to companies like Sandline? (Peleman) From what I know, some individuals who have been serving as bodyguards at the presidency are people already well known in the world of private mercenaries. They operate in traditional individual fashion and have been surrounding the president. (Boisbouvier) Are these people former comrades of Bob Denard for instance? (Peleman) If I can very well recall publications I have read on the issue, these are, among others, former French generals. Yes indeed. (Boisbouvier) Would that include Rtd Gen Jeannou Lacaze? (Peleman) Yes, among others. He is a well-known figure. (Boisbouvier) Would he be part of President Gbagbo's entourage? (Peleman) Yes, but in that case, it is rather some kind of strategic assistance.... (Boisbouvier, interrupting) Do they not want to say they are mercenaries? (Peleman) Well.... (Peleman pauses) I do not know. That is, in fact, private security. Indeed, it is mercenary, if you like. (Boisbouvier) And with the assistance of such military instructors, has the Ivorian Government been able to recruit mercenaries belonging to private companies? (Peleman) Yes, but that description is a bit too strong. I do not know if Mr Lacaze is the dealer in the recruitment of these South African mercenaries. It is known that the South African mercenaries are well installed in West Africa. They have carried out frequent operations in neighboring countries, including Sierra Leone, therefore, they really ought to have local agencies. (Boisbouvier) Now, are the mercenaries instructors, as we are officially told or are they rather combatants? (Peleman) Oh, that is only a term used in describing them. When one sees the number cited by the South African Institute for Security Studies.... (Boisbouvier, interrupting) That is dozens.... (Peleman, interrupting) Yes, dozens. We are, therefore, talking of an offensive operation here. In a normal operation, which includes instructors, there are only those included in the arms contract. There are just some 10 people. (Boisbouvier) Okay, there are also combat helicopters now in Cote d'Ivoire -- the famous ex-Soviet Mi-24 helicopters. Can they play an important role in the fighting? In the recent past in Africa they have been a determining factor. (Peleman) These are real flying armored vehicles. They are helicopters that can very well neutralize an enemy. They are well armed. Mobutu had even tried to acquire them but was unable to do so, which led to his resignation. (Boisbouvier) Who are the pilots? (Peleman) The pilots are normally part of the contract because this is equipment belonging to the ex-Soviet Union. All the instruments bear Soviet Cyrillic inscriptions, therefore, one needs people from Eastern Europe to fly the helicopters. That is usually included in the contract. (Boisbouvier) Are there weapons that are effective against these helicopters? (Peleman) Yes, there are, of course, surface-to-air missiles but one must have such missiles beforehand. (Boisbouvier) Do you know whether the Ivorian rebels have been to the mercenary and arms markets? (Peleman) Yes, there have been inquiries on missile acquisition, including surface-to-air missiles. (Boisbouvier) Through which agency? (Peleman) Oh, that is so far not known. (Boisbouvier) People are talking a lot about Burkina Faso's assistance (to the rebels). (Peleman) There is no definite proof or very definite information on that issue. There are only suspicions. (Boisbouvier) Why are there suspicions? (Peleman) Two years ago, there was a case in which the United Nations documented how a certain quantity of arms had been delivered to Liberia through Burkina Faso. (Boisbouvier) Jahan Peleman, can we therefore say that the mercenary and arms market in Africa is rather expanding now? Is that correct? (Peleman) Yes indeed. It is a kind of privatization of sovereignty. The private arms market is attacking the security of countries' borders and citizens, which both represent sovereignty, per se. Furthermore, African states are already weak. This, therefore, constitutes a huge problem for African states. (Boisbouvier) Thank you Johan Peleman. (end recording) (Description of Source: Paris Radio France Internationale in French -- government-owned radio, under the management of the Ministry of Culture, aimed at an international audience)