Cote d'Ivoire: Disarmament expert comments on arms supply, sale in Africa
Paris Radio France Internationale in French 1230 GMT 19 Oct 02
In Cote d'Ivoire observers are drawing attention to the fact that the
firepower of the two warring parties is being consolidated unabated for
the past one month. This is enough evidence to state that there are
supply channels for arms and ammunition. Now, how does the arms market
function in Africa? We have a response from a UN arms expert, the
Cameroonian diplomat Anatole Aissy. He speaks with Christophe
Boisbouvier.
[Begin recording] [Boisbouvier] Good morning, Anatole Aissy. You are a
Cameroonian diplomat and a disarmament expert. You are also UN
coordinator on light weapons in Africa. You are based in Geneva. The
striking thing as far as many people in Cote d'Ivoire are concerned is
the fact that in the first four weeks of the conflict, the firepower of
the two warring parties has not faltered, but it has rather been
sustained. So, is there a market where one can rapidly buy arms and
ammunition?
[Aissy] Of course, there is a market, and this market has been
flourishing for the past 10 years. In order to obtain addresses, it is
enough to visit specific web sites to see telephone and fax numbers as
well as e-mail addresses. One can easily get in contact with those who
publish such addresses, and one can obtain ammunition within 24 hours.
[Boisbouvier] Can one find guns and helicopters on the Internet?
[Aissy] Obviously, you will just have to enter the category of weapons
you desire in the search engines, that is guns, helicopters, M-15
kalashnikovs, and the engine will show you the addresses.
[Boisbouvier] People often say that these so-called arms dealers are from Eastern Europe. Is this true?
[Aissy] Yes, as you know, since the end of the Cold War, large stocks
of weapons are lying idle, as it were, and since these countries are
experiencing economic hardship, they are selling these weapons to earn
some money.
[Boisbouvier] Are these state-operated arms deals?
[Aissy] Initially, states were engaged in arms deals but there is
increasing pressure on governments that sell weapons in conflict-ridden
areas. Thus, the arms trade has not stopped but it has just fallen into
the hands of private arms dealers who are more or less colluding with
governments.
[Boisbouvier] There is an ex-Soviet pilot who sends helicopters and
weapons to central Africa, notably a Mr Victor Bout. Do you believe
that Russia or any former Soviet Union country is conniving with that
arms dealer?
[Aissy] Officially, governments are not in contact with this type of
individual but unofficially, you will discover that for these people to
be able to sell weapons they just have to buy it somewhere. The arms
dealers do not manufacture weapons. Thus, to buy weapons somewhere
there is the need for connivance.
[Boisbouvier] In an interview with Le Figaro newspaper, Laurent Gbagbo
says he bought weapons from Angola-based private companies. Does this
imply that there are private companies that manufacture and sell
weapons?
[Aissy] Not at all. The fact that a company is based in Angola does not
imply that Angola manufacture weapons. Meanwhile, the problem is that
the arms dealers are sometimes....
[Aissy pauses] based in countries where the law is increasingly severe
in regard to arms trafficking, for example in the United States and
Europe. They have therefore relocated their activities to Africa where
they may have room for maneuver.
[Boisbouvier] Are you saying that Europeans create somewhat fictitious
companies in Africa to escape from European laws?
[Aissy] I will tell you something today. For example, you do not need
to have a building, employees, and vehicles to set up an arms dealing
company. From your hotel room in Luanda or Maputo you could buy weapons
from Kazakhstan using a cellular phone and a multimedia computer. You
could use an airline that is based in former Yugoslavia to transport
the weapons, and transfer your money to the Cayman Islands, and you can
send these weapons to any country in Africa without even going out of
your hotel room.
[Boisbouvier] Is the incident of arms dealing from Eastern Europe highly significant?
[Aissy] Even if the arms dealing from this area is significant, it is
more quote, discreet, unquote. That is, dealing in arms is conducted
between one country and another country. Meanwhile, there is increasing
incidence of Mafia tendencies.
[Boisbouvier] These days, the courts are indicting many famous arms
dealers who are based in Europe. The Belgian Jacques Monsieur, who was
dealing in arms in Congo-Brazzaville, readily comes to mind....
[Aissy, interrupting] Yes.
[Boisbobuvier] Or the French national Pierre-Joseph Falcone, who was
selling arms in Angola. Both of them are in prison today. Apart from
these famous arms dealers, are there other arms dealers who are less
popular for example in France, Belgium or elsewhere, but who are
nonetheless efficient?
[Aissy] Yes, of course. There are other arms dealers, and we have a
list of these people, but you will understand that for professional
reasons I cannot give you their names. The two people who have been
mentioned today are just representatives of a bigger group, and
certainly, other names will come up during the trial of these arms
dealers.
[Boisbouvier] Do these other people hide under the cover of another kind of business?
[Aissy] Of course, this arms dealing goes hand in hand with other
businesses that are supposed to be official and legal. For example, oil
drilling, forest exploitation, and diamond exploration.
[Boisbouvier] In order to use sophisticated weapons such as helicopters
one will need specialists, especially pilots. Is there a market for
such mercenaries?
[Aissy] Yes, of course, and the person who will supply you with the
weapons will readily tell you that if you are buying 10 helicopters and
do not have pilots I can give you the phone number of a friend. It is
exactly like when you are buying a beautiful pair of shoes. The shoe
seller will tell you immediately that I also have this beautiful pair
of socks to match the shoes.
[Boisbouvier] Is this what happened in Congo-Brazzaville in 1997?
[Aissy] Exactly.
[Boisbouvier] You have worked on several UN reports on arms trafficking
to several African countries such as Liberia, Congo, and Somalia. Is
there a remedy for limiting trafficking in these engines of death?
[Aissy] So long as we have armed conflicts in Africa, and so long as
people desire to kill one another, no matter how perfect international
law is, weapons will always find their way into Africa. Thus, the
magical remedy is to stop armed conflict, and to resolve issues through
peaceful means.
[Boisbouvier] Thank you, Anatole Aissy.
[Aissy] Thank you very much.
[end recording]
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